33c3, Hamburg/DE, Dec 29th 17:00, Room C.2
33c3🔗Session:Nootropics(R/W)
Format:
Please bring a laptop as this will be an active etherpad session
Etherpad read mode: http://totalism.org/http://totalism.org/33c3-nootropics
Session from 32c3:
* 32c3🔗Session:Nootropics(R/W)
* 🔗32c3-nootropics
Table of Contents
Orga:
* hairyfotr@totalism.org @HairyFotr
* david@totalism.org @dcht00
Participants (please add):
* kaefergeneral@riseup.net
* congress2016@web.de
* qb@fastmail.net
* [...]
Pre-knowledge:
* ~1/2 basic
* a few intermediate
* two or three advanced
Disclaimers:
* Don't trust info, do your research, talk to doctors and pharma, etc.
* Supplements are not magic, not always well researched, and not a replacement for a healthy lifestyle.
* Listen to your body, know your limits.
* Measure effects, keep a journal
* [...]
Working definition
Nootropics (also called smart drugs, neuro enhancers, etc.) are substances (drugs, supplements, functional foods ...) that improve one or more aspects of cognitive performance. (via Wikipedia)
Specific areas of improvement:
* memory
* learning
* sleep
* motivation
* creativity
* concentration/focus
* emotional state
* alertness
* social
* logical thinking
* anxiolytic effects
* stress
Legality **:
* kratom (UK) (in head shops in DE)
* cbd in US (and europe :) - also as e liquid 20-200mg/ml)
* go to your doctor and cry like a baby until u get it :P
Common nootropics/stacks ****:
* caffeine + theanine
* nicotine?
* modafinil
* piracetam + choline
* fasoracetam + coluracetam
* noopept
* semax
* selank
* bacopa
* phenibut
* Omega 3 fatty acids
* Methylphenidate (ritalin)
* Nutmeg?
* amphetamines? (Adderall)
* Adrafinil:
gets to modafinil, when taken - up/ downsides? - none (liver damage?) compared to modafinil
Is this the same as Armodafinil which is usually sold as 150mg tabs? No
* melatonin
* Club Mate
* rhodiola rosea ("Rosenwurz" in German)(rozewortel in Nederlands):
one participant reported negative emotional effects after ~month
used as natural anti depressant thogh, the problem is, there are so many 'chemical' substances in it, and all of them have (side) effects ;)
* MSM (forgot..)
Non chemical nootropics:
* tDCS (transcranial direct current stimulation):
(can be build for as few as 5~10 bucks)
effect depends on stimulated brain region.
prefrontal cortex 20 min session:
* 4 to 14 days of improved sentiment (e.g. no depression)
* around 90 minutes of hyperfocus
* improoved working memory for up to 4 days
* almost fully awake for the next 6~12 hours so do in the morning, good after long nights
* TMS (Transcranial magnetic stimulation)
* Mindmachine (pulsed light/binaural sound)
* ganzfeld
Personal principles of consumption:
:
* take nothing everyday (!) (builds tolerance)
* if you are experiencing ANY (unwanted) side effects don't force it, immediatly put them off (don't hear on others stories, it's your body)
* [...]
(see also Disclaimer)
Personal Experiences:
* Noopept:
A bit like modafinil, general stimulant, seems to sharpen perception.
Usually take 10-20mg powder.
One user reports not being able to sleep for 18hours after taking it. Therefore it was a disadvantage
Recommends not to take more than 50mg
Also recommend 50mg, good if night was horrible ;)
use it to correct my sleep cycle (prescribed sleep medications are shit)
100mg modafinil (half of 200mg tablet) works ok for me. Modalert brand tablets are easily splittable
Currently understood to miss in 60-80% of people
Forms:
* oxide: not so good absorbtion
* chloride: also absorbed through the skin?
* citrate: probably best absorbtion
* glycinate:
had almost no effect on me. Should improve sleeping rythm.
can be problematic with / worsen high blood pressure
for me cancelled out microsleep in meetings <- yep I 2nd that
made me depressed after stopping it after a long period of taking it
stomach and digestion issues while taking it
underdosage (5mg) gave consistent results. good focus, no tiredness, no digestive issues
* Ethylphenidat
easier on the stomach/digestion
shorter effect than Methylphenidat from same dosage (20mg)
* Desoxypipradrol
feels like an overdose of modafinil. No chance of sleep for >24h
first 12h are okay, if the body is not exhausted. after that it is terrible
Side-effects:
* Check LD50 if any per substance:
e.g. Piracetam is very safe, as it has higher than sugar or salt
Not nootropics - stimulants with plenty of ill effects
Food for sleeping well?
* eggs
* oats
* dark chocolate
* melatonin
* Tryptophan
* magnesium (see above)
* reduce caffeine (esp. No in the ..evening ?
Neurotransmitter precursors:
* serotonin:
* tryptophan
* 5-htp:
A: Does 5-htp post-loading actually help MDMA comedowns?
B: It does; only take after all effects of it subsided though in order to not cause serotonin syndrome
B: It's less about the comedown and more about the week after / low serotonin levels
A: I have been taking it for a few days after MDMA for a few years, I'm just not sure it really helps beyond placebo. I don't think there has ever been a proper study.
B: Possible that it is overhyped, yes
B: Personally I do feel it helps but I also can't say for sure
A: 200mg 5HTP on an empty stomach has made me feel ill sometimes, better to eat it with food in my experience
C: EGCG, guys! (<- food for microbiota, which makes the transformation 5-HTP -> Serotonin possible!)
* choline:
Q: are there some natural (vegan) sources for choline?
A: soy/sunflower lecithin
Interactions
* Anti-depressants (SSRI)
* LSD/MDMA: gets buffered away (so they dont have any effect, or pretty low)
* MAO inhibitors
* Zinc vs. copper
Micro dosing **
* LSD (lysergamide research chemicals -> AL-LAD, 1p-LSD, ETH-LAD, ALD52)
* MDMA (is that even possible without draining yourself?) (no...)
- also: ad. noopept: strong effect amplification!
Quantifying results *****
* congnitive games
* blind testing
"Anti-nootropics"**
* Alcohol
* Tetrahydrocannabinol (but not CBD)
* Phtalates
* Aluminium
Sources of information *
* Examine
* WebMD
* Facebook groups
* Reddit:
* http://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/
* http://www.reddit.com/r/StackAdvice
* Erowid?
* PsychonautWiki
* YouTube
Minerals and Vitamins to supplement if you drink alcohol:
* calcium
* potassium
* magnesium
* zinc
* copper
* vitamin C
* thiamine B1
* riboflavin B2
Sharing research and data *:
This pad :)
Q: Is there a soylent food/pulver which includes nootropics?
seems somewhat pointless, since the exact nootropics you want are your choice.
seems more sensical to actually buy s/joylent and add your own nootropics
take a look at http://diy.soylent.com/
Q: Where to buy***
Research Chemical shops
nootropics.co.uk
qhi
~the dark web~
intellimeds.net
Amazon & co (esp. for vitamins)
Q: How to verify a substance is what it is?*
Marquis reagent tests work for MDMA and other drugs, but not for common nootropics
probably always a test kit, GC/MS is too unaccessible
http://www.consumerphysics.com/myscio/scio/ <-- This device (Scio) could potentially identify many chemicals through NIR spectroscopy <- does it really work? besides that, I'm not sure i want some cloud service to know about certain substances I might want to test ;-)))
Topics considered:
Nootropics vs medication vs drugs? *
Q: How do I find *my* optimal dose?
Timing supplement use *
Absorbtion, Interactions, Availability, Tolerance (Pharmacokinetics)
Q: How excatly do the chemicals work?**
A1: mostly increase choline levels?
A2: not just choline. some improve blood flow, some work on other neurotransmitters, ...
The Basics:
Lifestyle
Brain:
neurotransmitters:
blood brain barrier
General Notes:
:
* Pharmacies sell pill splitters for little money. easy to quarter pills wth those (a swiss knife will also do)
* [...]
Recording / later availability of session?
- IS THERE A WAY TO RECORD THE SESSIONS AUDIO? MANY DIDNT GET IN.
- There are about 3 seats free as of 17:45
- There is one more seat available, I'm in the session... someone can come in angels are say<<<<----------------ing no one can get in. its ok, would just be great to have a recording for those who didnt get in
- I think someone is doing a audio recording for private use , bu I will ask to upload NICE THANKS
- If upload is possible, the link will be here: \o/
- [...]
- imo uploading a recording would not be cool because of chilling effects, i.e. participants self-censoring
- Totally agree recording shouldn't be uploaded
- +1, maybe someone could do a transscript
- So some people will format and structure this pad after the session
- I couldn't make it, because the room was full. Please share the slides with us outside the door! ;/
-> there are no slides. This will be the result of the talk
-> the pad will be the result ? great!
-> after theddd session is finished, this pad will be reformated and stuctured better
Next session format (SHA / 34c3) ???
:
* "short introduction, all the info you already have gathered -> bundle and write down-> present more structured on powerpoint/whiteboard, maybe try to do a vote before the session starts about the topics that should be discussed( make a poll in the wiki/different website)."
* [...]
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